Arabian Nights Fishbowl 2
What do we learn about male and female roles in the society of The Arabian Nights in these two passages?
1: "Therefore, the king immediately ordered generous gifts to be prepared [for his brother], such as horses that had saddles lined with gold and jewels, mamelukes, beautiful maidens, high-breasted virgins, and splendid and expensive cloth" (2).Hit "comment" and show us your thoughts--lots of stuff to see in this one! There's a huge irony here that plays through the whole book. Anybody see it? Write whatever you think! Take five minutes on this one--that's a long time for two short passages! Focus and think....Make sure you include your first name + first initial of family name (example: clayb) in your comment! Always! And feel free to read and respond to other students' ideas: agree, disagree, say what their interpretation "taught" you, whatever.
2: "It so happened, however, that in the middle of the night he suddenly remembered he had forgotten a gift in his palace that he wanted to take to his brother. So he returned alone and entered his private chambers, where he found the queen, his wife, asleep on his own couch, and in her arms she held a black cook with crude features, smeared with kitchen grease and grime. Whe he saw this, the world turned dark before his eyes, and he said, 'If this is what happens while I am still within sight of the city, what will this damned whore do during my long absence at my brother's court?'" (4).
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47 comments:
Arabian Nights Fishbowl 2
There is an irony here when the king gives many many presents to his brother, and it seems like he does not give anything for his wife. I think that it looks like he pays little to no attention to his wife. There is another irony when he sees the queen in the chamber with the cook and he says, "if this is what happens while I am still within sight of the city..."
Sun Hong
The king prepared beautiful maidens, high-breasted virgins for his brother. It means his brother would flirt with those maidens and virgins. Then it would make his brother's wife[queen] really angry. But he didn't really care and he only thought that it will please his brother. But when HE saw his wife flirting with black cook, he got really mad and said : "If this is what happens while I am still within sight of the city, what will this damned whore do during my long absence at my brother's court?'"
I think if his brother's wife see this kind of thing, then she would have said this kind of thing too.
I think roles of male and female in "the Arabian nights" are just to please each gender.
It is perfectly normal for a king to hold possesion of "beautiful maidens, high breasted virgins" (obviously to be slept with), but for a woman to sleep with another man aside from her husband is a horrible, dreadful sin that should be punished by the slash of a sword. This is an obvious irony in the story of the Arabian Nights. If men can have many women, then shouldn't a woman be able to have many men? I'm not saying either choice is perfectly moral, I'm just noticing fact that the balance scale isn't quite BALANCED.
The women in Arabian Nights seem to me like the parent that always has to lose board games for their crybaby child. Whenever the child won Monopoly, or Sorry!, Or TROUBLE, it was perfectly fine. But if the parent was winning, even though he hadn't won yet, the child would cry, pout, even hit the mommy or daddy that never got the chance to win..even a little bit, for the slightest bit of actual fun. Spoiled kids. That's what kings in the passages are.
polas
I feel anti-feminist in both passages. In the first passage, womens are treated as if they were materials like jewels. I also felt as if they were being used by men and do whatever the say, showing that the men are almightyish. In the second passage, it is explained or quoted as if only women would do such action and that men have a weak loving heart. If men sleep with other women the women don't say anything, but men become so serious and sad that their wife or concubine slept with another man, which is a slave. Why would a King compare himself with a black slave? Kings are suppose to feel proud and strong about themselves. Therefore, I feel that both passages are anti-feministic
Gihoon S
Well the first thing that came to my mind was "What they had whores back then?" Which was completely random for me. Sorry to say this but I could not find any ironic parts, seriously. Well maybe he treated women as things, so maybe the cook did the same, except it was to the queen who was married. But he, the king slay the cook and the queen.
So I think he was being unfair judge.
Younsuk C
In the first passage, the king gives his brother beautiful maidens and high-breasted virgins. That means it is okay for the males to sleep with many other females. However in passage 2, the king sees his queen sleepong with other males and gets really angry. This means it is morally wrong for the females to sleep with many other males. This is an anti-feminist story. I didn't realize it when I was reading it!
saraho
first look people may view this as an anti-feminist story. Women are viewed as "evil" temptations that lead to loss of hands, ears, and pride. It gives the sense that women brings no good among people. Only existing to pursuade men into sexual acts and then to "no good." But if you actually think about it, this story is feminist! Yes it may be bad for the men but obviously its showing that the women are smarter, wiser, and powerful than these mindless men. Men are the ones whose judgements get cloudy but one flick of a womens hair. Men are trying to blame their ignorance on behalf of the womens temptations. HEY, its not our faults that you guys were stupid enough to get your body parts cut off. The women are cunning and fox like; telling a story to keep herself alive? Now what kind of man wouldve been able to think of something like that in this book? To only prove my point, look at how the men took care of their business. When the kings found their wifes cheating, they just killed them-- WOW, how simple is that. They were being one-tracked minded and didnt consider consenquences. While the women in the story, like the visers daughter, was wise and cunning. ALso when it came to sexual acts, the men were just restless dogs who couldnt wait to get into bed with only one thought in their mind--sex. While the women was considering things such as what should i do to stay alive? Hence, this try of bringing down women by being anti-feminist only proves that women are great by being a FEMINIST story.
2.Story-telling is a spell that you must cast upon your readers. if you get the wording and chant wrong-- the spell wont be effective. Story-telling must possess the power of holding you in and being able to control you. What makes a good story is if the reader is in control of the story, if not the story would be going nowhere. Arabian Nights is so wonderful because it puts us under a spell of awe. We cant even imagine these 1/100000 chance events that seem possible yet unbelievable. ITs like bringing fairy tales to life, making the impossible sounds believable. With the perfect wordings to make it the more understandable, the story begins to compell us realing us in closer and closer wanting to know more of what happens.
3. The Muslim civilization says "in the name of Allah..."A LOT. Not just a lot but, "AAAA LOT" like every other word is it. With the Medieval Christian Europe they were a lot more into the after life sense because life seemed to really suck for them. But since the Muslim civilization was so flourished the people didn't seem to really worry about getting punished from Allah. They believed that everything was controlled by Allah but it didnt seem like the sins really seemed to bother them. Im assuming that this was different because of the environment that the people were in. The Muslim religion was made to be fit for people living in a good era while Christianity was for people that had really "crappy" lives that they needed to seek hope in the after life.
4. The worst story was the donkey and the mule. It seemed quite irrelevant to all the other tales. The conclusion was also not what we usually expected. Shouldnt the helped be "blessed" for helping the poor? But instead they got punished? That seemed pretty bizzar to me. It was also just honestly not very interesting. Why would i care about a donkey and a mule? Its not like i can relate to them. I dont know what its like to eat hay or be whipped.
5. The Hunchback's Tale has to be far by one of the most interesting stories i have ever read. For one, it had all the magical qualities that i think are required for a good story and two, its entertaining to know that people are still the same as they were in the Muslim civilization. As each person tries to blame another person for a murder, i cant help but relate that to my every day life around here. Everyone tries to find a way to get themselves out of trouble by blaming someone else-- but in the end it all comes back to bite them in the butt. It's funny how each person is so self-consumed to give justice to a dead man and instead trying to protect themselves.
Irisr
In the last paragraph the king was sorrowful by his wife for having another relationship with man other than himself. And he thought that all women are full of malice but then later he still have a new wife everyday. I think this is ironic because the king think that women are full of malice and really got angry but he's still having relationship with women by having a different wive everyday.
Jin SooC
In the first passage, the king treats the maidens and the virgins as property. I guess some women were treated as 'things' for a useful purpose. However, in the second passage, the queen hides a big secret behind her husbands back. She has an affair with the kings cook. When you see this you'd think that women are tired of having to listen to their husbands and do whatever they do so they take matters into their own hands and take over. You could tell that these 2 passages are anti-feminist. Women can be treated as objects and can do nothing but be an object.
Sharon C.
In the first passage, it seems like women are men's possession. The king prepared for gifts as if women were jewels or clothes. I feel like women are almost like slaves and men's "job" or were allowed to sleep with many other women beside his wives.
In the second passage, it shows man's jealousy seeing his wife sleeping with other man. Men sleeps with other women, but why get jealous seeing her wife sleeping with different man? I think this kind of shows men are selfish and I felt bad for the women. Won't they be hurt seeing her husband sleeping with other women instead of her? Men didn't think of women's perspective. Also, women still didn't have enough power to fight this matter with men.
John Lee
In the first story, the king gave his brother women to sleep with but when he saw his wife sleeping with another guy, he was angry. It is easily seen as men can sleep with any women but women are not allowed. But I kind of agree about the fact that the king gave his brother virgins but his wife was a merried.
Also Why would the king go in to his chamber to get the present?
does this mean that the virgin and maidens were in his chamber??
AndrewSj
The king basically thinks that women are sexual tool of men. This is why i n his presents to his brother virgins in addition to gold and silver. He's letting his male bro enjoy his pleasure while he's making his wife only love him, which is kind of unfair (?). Wives were basically properties of husband in muslim world.
This is the irony. He cares about his siblings and is committed to give anything for him, but he won't spare or pardon any faults of his wife, the person husband's supposed to love the most (next to god)
Paul C
Yes. There is a HUGE irony in this part. Everybody said it. In the first passage, the king prepares maidens, virgins for his brother. And what do you think the purpose of presenting maidens and virgins are? Of course, "lovemaking." However, when King Sha Zaman's wife had an affair with the cook, he punishes them by slashing with sword. This is the contradiction. Why are men allowed to flirt with tons of virgins, while women must give their love to their one and only husbands(who flirt with other women)? However, these men's bias were unfortunately most of the men's thought at that time, I think.
Kenny K
As I read the first passage of the story, I could see one fat irony with my own eyes. The irony is that calling those maidens and virgins as presents is weird. I mean it is like calling myself as a toy robot.
This even goes for the second passage. Men have completely own the women in that time, but right now women are known as human as men are.
Brian S
I can see that women were almost treated as a "thing". In passage 1, the king gives his brother women as a present. It seems like the king just thinks women are just a kind of "sex toy".......... However, in passage 2, the King seems to care about women at least a little "BIT". He gets mad when the cook makes love with his wife.
It sounds like the world in Arabian Night is too harsh for women to survive as a "Human Being". They were just a "thing" or "jewerly" of rich men.
minhyo m
The difference between the genders in the story is that men can sleep with different "high breasted virgins"(-_-;;) while if women cheats on the men, she gets killed by sliced off into two. This fact is the irony between both passages that men can do this, while women cant. (I actually thought the first time i read the story, when it said the queen was sleeping with a cook, i misunderstood as some kind of cooking tool, i don't know why.)
Jin SooC
In these 2 passages some women were treated like property such as slaves but when the brother finds out that his wife had been playing behind his back, this shows the women have gone from the level of slave and secretly 'moved up'. this makes the story hugely anti-feminist (sorry if I'm starting to sound like some anti-feminist crazy person).
Andrewj L
In both of these stories, women are treated no better than possessions. As it says on the first passages, women were presents to his brother along with jewels, cloth, etc. Just part of the presents, nothing more......
And there's one thing that I don't get about the people of the time when the book was written there in the Middle East: If man's to have sex with countless number of women, and wives are to only obey, can anyone explain this descrepancy? There's to be no point of having a husband who flirts around all the time. It seems like it could be better to be born as a dog than to live under such conditions.
HOJUN J
When I read this story deeply, I definitely see that the story is telling that women are the properties of men. Because even though it’s his wife, who he once had loved, he curses her by saying the words that aren’t proper and it’s like a boy who throws out his toy because of repugnance. Also there’s something that I can’t really comprehend, which is why does the story have so negative perspectives about the black colored people? The story is diminishing the classes of black people, by putting the word black before slaves and a cook. Also when the king forgets a gift and goes back to the palace in the night, how could the king notice the cook’s skin color if the affair that he witnessed was in the middle of the night? This story is exaggerating the fact that the woman had slept with a man to a black cook.
In the first passage I can see that the women were treated as objects or "gifts". A lot of "beautiful maidens and high-breasted virgins" were sent to the king's brother. They were all for him to enjoy and flirt. However in the second passage, the king killed his wife for flirting with only one man. Kind of ironic isn't it? Because the king's brother and himself can have many women as he wants but his beloved wife can not even be tolerated for making out with only one other man. Very unreasonale in my opinion-_-
ILWONC
It is an irony that the king treats women as properties like giving his brother's wife to other man, but doesn't wants his wife to sleep with another man. Women has been treated as property in this story. However, they could sometimes control over men by the fact that they are considered as properties.
WonSeokC
We learn that males are dominant and more important than females and are full of selfishness. Females are looked upon as gifts to please males with little regard to their feelings. However, the irony here is that the king deserve beautiful maidens and high breasted virgins as gifts but a wife who has cheated on her husband should be damned. How would the wife of the king feel if he was handing out women as gifts?
How would the wife of the king's brother feel for her husband to be with beatiful maidens and high breasted virgins?
JiyeonH
The two passages; in fact, the whole book of Arabian Nights is full of irony. When Shah Zaman prepares maidens and high-breasted virgins for his brother to enjoy with, he gets mad when he finds out that his wife is having an affair with a cook. Of course, anyone who sees their spouse betraying them will become quite infuriated. Then, women should also have the right to be upset when their husbands sleep with other women. However, as this story completely ignores the thoughts and rights of women, I must conclude that it is an anti-feminist novel.
Amyk
On the first passage, females are gifts, or an entertainment to males. It is what makes a male look greater and enjoy more. Female seems nothing more than a gift or a entertainment here because that is what Shahryar said. This passage is very anti-feminist.
The second passage, though, shows that males do take females seriously in other ways but gifts. Why would Shah Zaman care if his gift is playing with another man? For somehow it also shows that female do play with males too. This shows how strong females can be on the other hand when dealing with men. Of course, this passage shows this idea in a negative way. As if females are evil things that play with any men.
MichelleL
In these two passages, women are not treated like a human being who has feelings and thoughts. The kings 'enjoyed' any woman he wanted at anytime and didn't think of it as a wrong doing at all. However, for example, when the man found his wife with another man, he got so angry that he killed both wis wife and the cook (the man she was with). This seems to show part of a huge irony and shows the readers that in the Arabian Nights, woman are more like property without any freedom.
It seems unfair for men to have all they want and it is so wrong for a woman to live a life just like the man.
"...beautiful maidens, high breasted virgins..." This quote makes women seem as if they're an item or possession that one can have. However in the second passage the king is mad that his wife had slept with another man when he himself had slept with many women. I find it not fair that women can't sleep with other men while the men are out there sleeping with many other women. Why is it that men get to do whatever they please but women have to live by rules?
Lydia K
ahh the last one was mine but if you havent recieved it...
"...beautiful maidens, high-breasted virgins..." This is a quote from passage one. It makes women look as if they're a possession or an item that one can have. The king just "gives" women to anyone as if they're slaves. The second passage on the other hand shows that the king has become furious that his wife had slept with another man. Why is it that men can live freely while women had to live by boundaries.
This is just not fair in my eyes. Women are not toys that men can have and if they have a wife they should know how to pay attention to their wife instead of other women.
(But i wonder what would happen to those women, would they be killed after? Would anyone marry them?)
juliar
"HIGH-BREASTED VIRGINS?!"
The king prepared virgins for his brother. Women are treated like men's properties in thses passages. They give females as gifts just like we give jewleries for birthday presents. The first passage sounds very natural and obvious for giving "HIGH-BREASTED VIRGINS" as gifts, but the 2nd passage makes so much deal from his wife having an affair. I mean, his going to have s&* with his "gifts" when he's out of the town durin his "long absence." This paragraph is written from an anti-feminist view.
Shinhee L
If you are a man, are you attracted by "high-breasted virgins" or if you are a woman, are you attracted by "saddles lined with gold and jewels or expensive cloth" ?
Honestly, of course you would be attracted by those things - if you were living in the same century as "The Arabian Nights".
So what is it, that these two roles of males and females be evil? As we've seen in the 1900s, male were the source of "money" as females were the source of "birth" and "house cleaning". But why does woman sound much like an "object" in the first passage?
It indicates that the king ordered "generous gifts" and mentions "high-breasted virgins" later on, which mathematically due to "transitive propergation" ;
gifts = women.
So women were nothing but gifts given by the man and recieved by the man.(in the first passage)
Also, this is a stupid "irony" made up by me but why does "virgins" have to be "high-breasted" and why should they be "virgins"? Their religion may have been a major influence but why can't they just say "pretty girls" instead of "high-breasted virgins"?
How about the second passage? Before picking out any feminist issues there, didn't you have those times when you were banned from computers but then when your mom's out, you secretly use the computer and then shut it straight away when you hear your mom's foot steps? And think it as a long term - if your mom's out for 3 months, wouldn't you be sleeping with the computer 24/7?
It has no differences between that "childhood memory" and this second passage. Maybe, the wife was lonely. They are human after all and we aren't even sure that the man was passionate only for his wife?! So again, the man treated her as "always-besides-me" person. And his "own couch" ; "marriage" is the union of everything - from furnitures to even hair brushes. Why is it that he is so PICKY about sleeping on his "own couch" ?
From the first thought, i thought these 2 passages showed how women has no feelings and men control everything. That women are just a sexual entertainment of men.
However, i believe these 2 passages explained how men treated women unfairly. Men had given women no freedom to have "their" own lives. Men has been selfish and just treated their women as they wanted to. And as women become too tired from such imprisoned life, they find their freedom by having sex with other men. Thus, such cruel acts of women comes from men's evil treatment.
Lindsay L
Women are the ones that has to satisfy men with all means. Men does not seem to care about women, but they are aware of what they are doing. But like in the passage, as the king found out the truth of what their wife does while they are gone, he was disappointed ans angry. He expected his wife to be working at home. We could see that women are trying hard to satisfy their husband even by pretending. Atleast, women arent lazy in front of them. They are actors, acting to please men. They are swans, pretending to be so fine but having a hard time after. On the other hand, men actually seems to be timid and self centered.
Anyway, there is a huge irony here. The King is giving his brother maidens and virgins for present to enjoy, but he wants his wife to only love him. When Sha Zaman's wife had an affair with the cook, he killed her. How ironic?
Women might have less power than men, but doesnt mean they can be posessed.
Shinhee L
Cont.. on...
The men in the two passages is the toy owner of those objects - according to my solution of "women's labels". They have everything as they can give and recieve them. And as they are calling these gold and jewels as "gifts" , why can't they just give out money instead?
Dabin L
G period
These two passages clearly show its negative and anti-feministic ideas upon women. The king simply considered “beautiful maidens” as if they were objects that were somehow expensive and worthy—not as human beings just as him. Also in the second passage, the wife was described as a “whore” and the one who doesn’t worth a trust, which expressed negativities of women. Although both passages included anti-feminism, there is a big irony between these two passages. In the first passage, it seemed like the females are something that can be easily controlled by men. However, in the second passage, the woman seems to be something which a man can never take control over.
above article Steven N
Laurenl Period G
Hmm. Are horses and virgins treated as the same level of possession? I wonered all the way through the story why the king insists on virgins when he has lost his a long time ago. Why does women have to sacrifice for men as if we are their possession? The second passage actually made me laugh since it was an example of what happens when you treat a woman like a possession. Possessions and properties are not treated equally as when you treat someone as your lover. The second passage showed me that a women can be more than just a property since it challenged the man's emotion.
Anna K
There is two passages which is totally different from each other. When I read the first passage, I could feel that the King loved his wife and just over to his palace because he left his brother's gift in his room. However, in the second passage, I could tell that his feelings totally changed. When he saw his wife cheating on him with a "black" cook, he felt so betrayed from his wife that he was speechless. What seems weird is to see a beautiful Queen cheating on her King to a "black" cook. Weird. Just the word "black" just seems to be weird for that person to be cheated on. Overall, I think that women are overcoming their powers and start to do whatever they want to instead of doing whatever the men tell them to do. In a way it seems like its a good thing... But in a way it can be a bad thing...
sunghoon
Female role? there is no female role. I could say, that female are there, existing to enjoy male. Just like in the first quote, the women are gifted, they are treated as items and a "Thing" that is used like a tool. Females are dirty creatures, is what i reflect when i see the second quote. They are ofcourse stereotyped but women are not allowed to go out of men's control and get slashed in half is so. Women plays an important role here, if i had to say, but it's not a good role is my best description without offense.
I agree with whoever wrote a comment after Hojun. The king is pretty stupid. If he prepared many beautiful maidens for his brother, it is right to assume he has more women besides his wife. His wife only takes one other man and the king get's mad and murders them. What a stupid king. This basically gives the idea that women during this time were obviously not given the same rights, or status as men did.
In another view however, maybe the king was just upset because he had always thought he and his wife were the closest together, and the fact that he found out that his wife wasn't entirely in love with him made him angry. Who knows?
The one above me is ChaiYoungL sorry I forgot to include my name.
Lynnh
The irony here in these 2 passages is the double standard of the king. He expects his wife to be loyal to him, to have no other relationships with men besides him. This is why he is in despair after he discovers that his wife is having an affair with a slave.
However, he sends beautiful women to his brother as gifts, which reflects that the king considers men having affairs with other women is fine. The king has a double standard, a standard that is applied differently according to the person that the standard is being applied to.
For first passage I felt little bit angry because they treat female as an object. Do this king thought female was an alive toys? And why did he classify female into two type?-beautiful maidens and high breasted. Then all beautiful maidens have small breast and highly breast virgins are all ugly??????
I once again realized that men like virgins and women with big breast. God… male is all same. I also I realized that they had white slaves!!!! That’s really interesting. White slaves in Islam country………
Second passage.. I think queen is the one who attempt the cook, but I’m curious why he was smeared with kitchen grease and grime. Also I think they were sleeping on the King’s bed because Queen treated cook like his husband, king. I think Queen did it purposely.
↑ [Stephanie Y]
SarahO
Men are portrayed as people that eat a buffet and women are portrayed as people that have a meal. (maybe im making this simile because i am hungry..) Men are given a wide variety and an "eat till you drop" type of decision. They can have a wife but still get some high breasted virgins for desert. While women are given food in a platter, where-- yes it may be tasteful, but there is an end to how much you get to eat. And when they ask for more, you have to pay. The women are portrayed as CHEATERS and basically EVIL, wrong doers for cheating on their husbands as if they deserve to die. But the irony of it is that the men are the ones that has been caging the womens up while they go around having as many virgins they pleased till they killed their hunger of lust. How is it that women are so put down and caged but when they try to do a little of what the MEN do, they get killed for it.
stacym
In both passages, I thought they both referred as anti- feminist passages since in both passages, women are treated like a “thing,” not human being. In the first passage, women are treated as if they are objects such as jewelry to hang around men, also something that can be replaced with gold. Though in the second passage, men show self centered attitudes, still women show shallowness by sleeping with men. It didn’t make any sense that in the first passage, men are allowed to sleep with many women, but in the second passage, women are considered low if they sleep with many men. Therefore, I believe both passages are totally anti- feminist.
Kyongminl
It’s nice to send gifts to your brother but what’s with the high-breasted virgins? I mean it’s a different century we are talking about but I think they need some respect to their wife. When he saw his wife with another man, his eyes turned black. I bet he was disappointed, but he was doing the same thing to her. I agree with what Lynn said.
oops i forgot my name jessicay...my answer is the 3rd comment from the top
jeank
In the society of The Arabian Nights, the males' role are to be innocent. Also, they are the ones with the full power as they can even kill their own wives. Meanwhile, the females are to be always the ones who had made a mistake. Shah Zaman allows himself to prepare maidens to his married brother. Basically, he thinks it's right for his brother to have sex with another woman while being married. Though, Shah Zaman doesn't allow his wife to have sex with other man. This is truly an unfair sight.
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